General Z-Moves

[Polaris]

New type of move from Gen 7, and they're freaking powerful, but the mechanics are a little byzantine (you need a "Z-Ring" and a matching "Z-Crystal" in the games to use one).

 

Question is, how will they work in Pokémon Vortex?

[iZeus]

• It can be like a one time purchase or so for a massive amount like we already have Mega Ring but we have to purchase the Mega Stone on the mart.
• Likewise, we will already be owning a Z-Ring and have to buy Z-Crystals from the mart.

 

• They can be in Change Attacks option like for a much larger amount than usual moves but since Vortex doesn't have a PP System, it will have to be worked on.
• But seeing how Vortex is right now, it's wise to ignore the 1-use a battle and make it a 5th move or so.

 

Now that you have asked this, even I am kinda curious. 

[Polaris]

If the Z-moves worked like normal moves available from the "Change Attack" screen we could have a balance issue akin to when "Punishment"/"Explosion"/"Self-Destruct"/"Trump Card"/"Reversal" had power levels of 200-250. The need was felt to nerf these attacks to 120 (which, while I agree with the nerf in that the moves were too powerful, seemed a little arbitrary and overkill as they're now significantly weaker than say Focus Punch and retain their significantly greater costs). It would be interesting to consider where the line would be drawn balance-wise.

 

Currently, the moves with the highest base power available are Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, and Sheer Cold at 300, but as they're all variants of the same move and happen to have accuracy that is just as staggeringly low as their power is staggeringly high at 30%, these moves only have 90 power on average with their inaccuracy balancing them. For Z-moves, this low-accuracy solution wouldn't make sense as it isn't consistent with their accuracy in the original games as all Pokémon Vortex moves are.

 

The greatest base power of a move where heavy inaccuracy isn't a factor is V-Create with 180 Power (albeit at 95% accuracy for an average 171 power), but since it can't be obtained on a Pokémon with Same-Type Attack Bonus (STAB), it doesn't have the highest potential for consistent damage. That honour goes to moves with 150 power (Eruption, Focus Punch, Gyro Ball, Water Spout, as well as Hyper Beam and its variants which are as powerful but slightly less accurate at 90% accuracy: Blast Burn, Frenzy Plant, Giga Impact, Hydro Cannon, Rock Wrecker, and Roar of Time). With STAB, 150 Power becomes 225. Base damage in Pokémon Vortex is Power*(1+2/3). 150*(1+2/3)*1.5(from STAB)=375, just under the 400 needed to 1-shot most level 100's, unless your Pokémon also has the Dark specialty in addition to STAB, where your damage is multiplied again by 1.25, (375*1.25=468.75 which when rounded becomes 469 and *can* 1-shot most enemies, though this is counteracted and apparently justified by the Metallic and Shiny specialties.) The Dark+STAB combination will do 400+ damage with any move of 128+ Power, though realistically this is 130+ Power as Power is always a multiple of 5 for whatever reason.

 

In Sun and Moon, most Z-moves' Power is based on the moves used as a catalyst, ranging from 100-200. I'll refer to these as "varied Z-moves".

 

There are a few "fixed Z-move" exceptions, granted as signature moves to specific Pokemon. 

 

-Pikachu (presumably a Pikachu (Cap) variant based on footage) has a move called 1,000,000,000-Volt Thunderbolt that appears to have a fixed power of 195. Then there's *another* fixed Z-move listed by Serebii as Pikachu's called Catastropika that is even stronger at 210 Power. Both are Electric moves and would receive STAB, both have an accuracy of 101%. Good for you, Pikachu. But wait, there's more! "Alolan Raichu" is a thing, and gets another Electric fixed Z-move in Stoked Sparksurfer with 175 Power. I can't tell you why it's weaker than Pikachu's fixed Z-moves, I guess that's another reason for Ash not to evolve his. 

 

-Patrick will like this one, Snorlax of all Pokémon gets its own fixed Z-move in Pulverizing Pancake, which ties Catastropika as the most powerful at 210 Power and, being Normal, would receive STAB.  

 

-Sun and Moons' starters' final evolutions also have fixed Z-moves: Decidueye's Sinister Arrow Raid (180 Power), Incineroar's Malicious Moonsalt (180 Power), and Primarina's Oceanic Operatta (195 Power), and all would receive STAB.

 

-Mew gets a fixed Z-move called Genesis Supernova with a fixed Power of 185 and STAB. Too bad for Mew it still can't change attacks, though I reckon this will be fixed by the time the update for version 7 rolls in.

 

-Marshadow's Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike also apparently has a fixed Power of 195 and STAB with its typing being Ghost/Fighting. Interestingly, this is the only new Legendary introduced in Sun and Moon with a fixed Z-move, and Marshadow is obtained through an event. All fixed Z-moves have STAB.  

 

The fixed Z-moves are game-changers with power much like Punishment's pre-nerf, but their exclusivity as signature moves helps contain them from being completely out of control, and as of yet there are just 9 of them (though there could be more introduced in subsequent generations). The varied Z-moves on the other hand can be learnt by pretty much everything, in fact most Pokémon can learn *several* varied Z-moves. As seen with moves like Gyro Ball and Energy Ball, Pokemon Vortex can't accompany "varied power" attacks, so they'd have to be assigned a fixed value. If they were given a power of 200, they'd break the game, or at least any semblance of balance it has. If they were given their average Power of 150, they'd utterly obsolete every other damage move (I mentioned earlier that the best moves in the game had 150 Power and STAB). Keeping them to their minimum power of 100 could make sense, in which case they'd be like doubly powerful Hidden Powers that are slightly more exclusive as they're awarded based on initial move pools. 

 

Giving them their max power but making them useable only once per battle is another idea if the coding's possible, but then you could still just use 6 Z-moves in a battle if every Pokémon has access to them and wipe out any opponent with 6 straight OHKO's. One Z-move per battle could work if codeable, though I'd still prefer minimum-power varied Z-moves for all and max power fixed Z-moves for those few that have them.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by Polaris

[unknown_citizen]

... more Spoilers stuff, huh?! (Nah)

 

Here, all the Z-Moves ("varied Z-Moves" + "fixed or exclusive Z-Moves") ...... 

 

[Sneezeball]

They either wont be in game, or they will have much lower power, like 120.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Sneezeball

[Polaris]

Keep in mind that 120 isn't necessarily lower Power for most Z-moves as they have a floor of 100 Power.  

 

There's no precedent for damage-dealing moves to be excluded from the game, nor for a ceiling of 120 Power to exist when we have at least *30* moves with more power than that, which is why I agree with the rationale behind Patrick's attack nerfs but disagree with their extent, especially to Explosion and Self-Destruct when it isn't possible for them to be super-effective anyway, so now they're inferior Hyper Beams with much higher costs when they could just as easily have 150 power.  

 

130: Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Draco Meteor, Fling, High Jump Kick, Leaf Storm, Overheat, Skull Bash.  

140: Boomburst, Freeze Shock, Ice Burn, Last Resort, Psycho Boost, Sky Attack.

150: Blast Burn, Eruption, Frenzy Plant, Focus Punch, Hydro Cannon, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Gyro Ball, Roar of Time, Rock Wrecker, Water Spout.

180: V-Create

300: Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Attack, Sheer Cold

 

The best solution in my opinion would be to adjust the damage multiplier (currently *1.66...) on attack power to accompany higher Power levels consistent with the games while preventing excessive 1-shotting. A damage multiplier of *1 would render anything incapable of reaching 400 damage at standard effectiveness except for Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Attack, and Sheer Cold through STAB, and they could just as well have their Powers adjusted to 500 given that they don't have fixed powers in the games and their inaccuracy would still render their average damage no better than a 150 power move. Even Catastropika and Pulverizing Pancake (the highest-power Z-moves) would only be capable of dealing at most 394 damage at standard effectiveness through Dark and STAB. This would also integrate the initial powers of Explosion and Self-Destruct, as Explosion can't be learned with STAB (Lickilicky theoretically could, but it can't currently change moves as its name starts with L and simply omitting Explosion from its learnset would similarly prevent any issues). Dark STAB Self-Destruct would deal 375 and Dark Explosion would deal 313. 

 

 

[Sneezeball]

11 hours ago, Polaris said:

Keep in mind that 120 isn't necessarily lower Power for most Z-moves as they have a floor of 100 Power.  

 

There's no precedent for damage-dealing moves to be excluded from the game, nor for a ceiling of 120 Power to exist when we have at least *30* moves with more power than that, which is why I agree with the rationale behind Patrick's attack nerfs but disagree with their extent, especially to Explosion and Self-Destruct when it isn't possible for them to be super-effective anyway, so now they're inferior Hyper Beams with much higher costs when they could just as easily have 150 power.  

 

130: Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Draco Meteor, Fling, High Jump Kick, Leaf Storm, Overheat, Skull Bash.  

140: Boomburst, Freeze Shock, Ice Burn, Last Resort, Psycho Boost, Sky Attack.

150: Blast Burn, Eruption, Frenzy Plant, Focus Punch, Hydro Cannon, Hyper Beam, Giga Impact, Gyro Ball, Roar of Time, Rock Wrecker, Water Spout.

180: V-Create

300: Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Attack, Sheer Cold

 

The best solution in my opinion would be to adjust the damage multiplier (currently *1.66...) on attack power to accompany higher Power levels consistent with the games while preventing excessive 1-shotting. A damage multiplier of *1 would render anything incapable of reaching 400 damage at standard effectiveness except for Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Attack, and Sheer Cold through STAB, and they could just as well have their Powers adjusted to 500 given that they don't have fixed powers in the games and their inaccuracy would still render their average damage no better than a 150 power move. Even Catastropika and Pulverizing Pancake (the highest-power Z-moves) would only be capable of dealing at most 394 damage at standard effectiveness through Dark and STAB. This would also integrate the initial powers of Explosion and Self-Destruct, as Explosion can't be learned with STAB (Lickilicky theoretically could, but it can't currently change moves as its name starts with L and simply omitting Explosion from its learnset would similarly prevent any issues). Dark STAB Self-Destruct would deal 375 and Dark Explosion would deal 313. 

 

 

They dont fit in game like this, I dont want to play a game where everything kills everything in 1 hit.

130 base power + stab + dark boost kills everything that isnt resi stant ot shiny/metallic. While 120 was just suggestion, it doesnt sound too OP.

Edited November 20, 2016 by Sneezeball

[Polaris]

There's evidently a disparity between what I posted and whatever it is you chose to read and reply to, but I suppose that's the cost of the relative long-windedness I can be prone to. 

 

In retrospect, I hadn't listed Flail (which I believe is a 150-Power 100% Accurate Normal move in Vortex), in which case it would serve as a more comprehensive better to post-nerf Self-Destruct and Explosion than Hyper Beam or Giga Impact which have 90% accuracy each, though this doesn't stop them from still being better moves on average. 

 

Another alternative to adjusting the attack multiplier would be to increase HP per level. A 210-power STAB Dark move with the current attack multiplier would do 656 damage at standard effectiveness. If HP per level were doubled (for example), any Level 100 could survive that. 

[Guest]

Patrick will also like Snorlax's Z-move because the word cake is in it.

[Ariyanu7]

But I don't know h

ow to get one ?

[Guest]

Or all Z-attacks could be item dependent, and the Z-crystals could only work once in a 24 hour period ...?

[Neor]

well there's no problem in having them but maybe they must have a cooldown effect or they must be like a special move which is used only once in the battle by the particular pokemon and then the move maybe used in the next battle without any need to buy the z-crystal again right guys!

[jumpdafukupp]

On 20/11/2017 at 12:35 PM, Hex A. Decimal said:

Or all Z-attacks could be item dependent, and the Z-crystals could only work once in a 24 hour period ...?

im with you!